know, he gets a lot of grief on civil rights. and it's true he did not use the bully pulpit. he could have done a better job on that. but he was a subtle guy. he desegregated d.c. when people weren't watching. he desegregated the armed services. it wasn't truman. he appointed all the federal judges that desegregated the south. he believed in moving, as john was saying, with a hidden hand. that's true on civil rights as well. he's been unfairly criticized for being weak on civil rights. he was not as strong as he could have been, but he did things behind the scenes that were important. >> let's talk, presidential historian, jon meacham, who has a book coming out after the election that's forthcoming. "thomas jefferson, t.j." ike, a good president? a near great president? or a great president? >> i would say he's great. i think that he -- one of the things we haven't talked about on the domestic side is he ratified what franklin roosevelt and harry truman had done in that he could have created -- in 1952, '53, the political climate, i think, and check me on this, evan, was such that if
